Group cites burnout, hopes others will
Cincinnati--The Cincinnati Pride Committee will dissolve, leaving the future of the Pride parade and festival in doubt.
The disbanding was announced in a September 23 email sent to the Cincy Pride Yahoo group by committee co-chair Ken Colegrove, on behalf of the other members.
�It had been our hope that new volunteers would join the ranks of our organization to whom we could pass the torch and eventually take over the planning of Pride,� the e-mail reads. �Sadly, this has not happened.�
�Although the Cincinnati Pride celebration has grown to be the largest event in the local GLBT community, it remains one that is planned and executed by less than ten dedicated volunteers,� it continues. �And it has been, for the most part, the same volunteers year after year, organizing every aspect of the parade, festival and rally, and working nonstop (mostly behind the scenes) during the event.�
��It is our hope that either an individual, or another group or organization, will . . . decide to carry on the tradition by presenting their own version of a Pride celebration for the Cincinnati community.�
The community�s immediate response was a mix of gratitude, curiosity and sadness.
�I certainly hope that a new group will spring up to take over the local June Pride event in some form or another,� said Tom Vaughn, vice president for marketing and PR of the Cincinnati Men�s Chorus.
�I think a lot of volunteer organizations face the same situation that Cincinnati Pride has felt, and I know we have felt the same pains at the center,� said Cincinnati GLBT Center president Harold Keutzer. �People look for a few to do the event year after year and don�t get involved, leading to the burn-out.�
�I think basically we don�t want people to think we are dissolving because we�re just �tired of doing it,� � said co-chair Debra Randall. �They all need to realize what it takes to put together this event and why after a few years it is time to let someone else step up to the task. People truly have no idea at all what goes on behind the scenes, nor do they know how heartbreaking and backbreaking it can be.�
The Cincinnati Pride Parade was reintroduced in 2000 after a five-year hiatus.
�Chris Good actually resurrected the parade in 2000,� said Colegrove. �I just took it on in 2001 to keep it going because I thought Cincinnati needed a Pride parade.�
�Our community was lacking a sense of togetherness and an avenue to show our pride,� said Cincinnati Pride treasurer Suzanne Mehl. �In the past there had been a very small parade . . . and it just was lacking the enthusiasm that we knew was out there. We knew what we wanted the outcome to be, we just needed the perfect recipe.�
�But the thing is, although to most folks the focus of Pride is the parade, there needs to be something memorable at the end of it, so the festival portion kept getting bigger and bigger until it almost eclipsed the parade.�
Cincinnati Pride is also unique in that its festival is a two-day series of concerts in Hoffner Park.
�It was simple economics,� Colegrove said, explaining the creation of the festival. �All the festival equipment, staging, etc., would always be set up on Friday, and then just sit there unused until after the parade on Sunday. It just made sense to invite some musical acts to play Saturday so we could open up the beer trailer and make a few extra bucks to help pay for everything.�
�One way or another the show will go on,� Keutzer opined. He has volunteered to organize a list of those willing to pitch in to ensure the continuation of Cincinnati Pride, and Hamburger Mary�s offered their restaurant as a meeting space for a new committee.
As for the future, the committee members are volunteers by nature.
�I have volunteered with many organizations in my life and continue to be a board member of New Edgecliff Theater, so my volunteer days are definitely not over,� Mehl said, noting that she will also be spending more time with her partner Debra Randall, and her children and grandchild. �I do, however, look forward to being a face in the crowd at the 2005 Pride Festival. I have not been able to be a spectator at the parade or walk the ground of the festival to visit the various booths and vendors.�
Colegrove also believes that his volunteer days are far from done.
�I would like to say that I am just going to relax, but I always seem to somehow wind up getting involved in some volunteer gig,� he responded to questions about his plans for the future. �Ask me again in a few months.�
Randall will be devoting more time to Everywomon, a show dedicated to female musical artists on WAIF 88.3 FM, where she also helped program the LGBT show Alternating Currents.
Those who are interested in picking up where Colegrove, Randall, Mehl, parade organizer Jason Dul and secretary Cynthia Jeffries left off are asked to e-mail Keutzer at email@example.com.
Columbus--A poll released this week shows that an Ohio constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage can be defeated in November, says the group working against the measure.
The poll was taken August 13-14 for Ohioans Protecting the Constitution by the Republican polling firm American Viewpoint and the Democratic firm the Kitchens Group.
American Viewpoint�s clients include the Log Cabin Republicans and U.S. Rep. Mike Oxley, R-4. Kitchens� Ohio clients include Mary Boyle�s 1998 bid for the U.S. Senate.
The poll showed 53 percent in favor of the amendment as written, 39 percent opposed, and 7 percent were undecided.
This is similar to an Ohio Poll sponsored by the University of Cincinnati in August showing that 56 percent of Ohioans would vote for the amendment, and 40 percent would oppose it.
OPC�s poll asked voters if they would vote for it twice, before and after the caller explained what it does.
Before hearing what it did, 61 percent said they would vote for the amendment, 30 percent opposed it, and 8 percent were undecided.
When asked about only the first sentence of the amendment that simply bans gay marriage, 71 percent said they would support it, and 29 percent were opposed.
When the second sentence banning anything that �intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect of marriage� was factored in, support dropped to 54 percent.
On civil unions, the poll showed 31 percent strongly support them and 22 percent somewhat support them. Thirty percent strongly oppose civil unions, 11 percent somewhat oppose them.
�It shows that Ohio voters are in transition on same-sex marriages and civil unions,� said OPC campaign manager Alan Melamed. �They are not ready to accept same-sex marriages, but are on the edge of accepting civil unions.�
Melamed said the word �marriage� is still a hurdle, but �people are not looking to be punitive and not willing to take benefits away.�
Poll confirms strategy
Melamed said the poll confirmed the campaign�s strategy to show voters how the second sentence of the proposed amendment goes beyond constitutionally preventing same-sex marriages, into barring legal recognition for civil unions and all non-marriage relationships for both same-sex and opposite-sex couples.
Proponents of the amendment concede that it bans civil unions and would prevent cities, counties and public universities, from offering domestic partner benefits to employees.
At press time, Attorney General James Petro, a Republican and Columbus Mayor Michael Coleman, a Democrat, are among the growing list of Ohio public officials who are opposed to the measure. They also believe it is bad for Ohio economically.
Fundraising picks up
Melamed said the boost from the officials has prompted campaign fundraising to pick up considerably, though his expectation is that that the campaign will have only $2 million to spend. Initial predictions were $4 million.
The Human Rights Campaign contributed $50,000 to OPC in July. Melamed will not talk about other contributions until campaign finance reports are filed in October.
The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, however, is not contributing toward the Ohio effort. It cites flaws in the Ohio campaign as part of the reason.
Eleven states are expected to have constitutional amendments on the November 2 ballot: Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Utah. Of those, only Ohio and Utah have provisions that explicitly ban all other non-marital arrangements.
�Everywhere we are on the ballot we face an uphill battle,� said Task Force director Matt Foreman. �It�s like a David and Goliath situation and if we win in one or two places it will be nothing short of a miracle.�
Ohio among four states with a chance
Foreman includes Ohio in the list of four states with a realistic chance of defeating the amendments. The others are Oregon, Kentucky, and Michigan.
But Oregon and Kentucky will get the financial and staff support of his group. Oregon will get $500,000 and is the targeted state for victory.
�We have to win somewhere so people will believe it is still possible to win,� said Foreman.
Foreman said Oregon, with its single major media market, has defeated three of four anti-gay ballot initiatives since 1988 and has �seasoned campaign veterans� on the ground and electorate used to hearing the anti-gay messages of the religious right.
�After the fourth time around, those messages get stale,� said Foreman.
Kentucky, according to Foreman, has a closely knit progressive community in the major cities and a �solid campaign that has done lots of door to door work� to defeat the amendment.
Foreman counts the door-to-door work done in Cleveland Heights and Cincinnati on behalf of the domestic partner registry and Article 12 repeal campaign, respectively, as assets. He also counts as an Ohio asset the field work done by groups including Americans Coming Together who are trying to move progressive voters to the polls.
But Foreman says Ohio and Michigan are large states with multiple media markets, making them very expensive to mount an effective campaign.
Don�t avoid gay issue
Foreman is also skeptical of OPC�s strategy.
�We give our best advice,� said Foreman, �then it�s up to the local people. I hope they come up with a new way to win anti-gay ballot measures.�
Foreman said campaigns that only talk about �protecting the constitution� or �not enshrining discrimination� don�t work. He said those were the messages of the failed campaigns in Hawaii and Alaska which amended their constitutions in 1998. They were also used in Missouri, which amended its constitution in August, and California when it passed Proposition 22 in 2000.
�People do not have an attachment to their state constitutions,� said Foreman. �The right has a simplified message around gay marriage, and we have no way to change that subject.�
�We believe the issue needs to be addressed on its merits,� said Foreman, �and why marriage matters to families. Over the long run, this serves the cause the best.�
�In order to move voters,� said Foreman, �three educational steps need to occur.�
�First, voters need to set aside their visceral reaction to gay marriage. Next they need to think about it. Then they need to be given the human, fairness-based argument about the benefits of marriage.�
Foreman said that during door-to-door campaigns, 60 percent of voters move toward gay marriage because they hear those messages on their porches.
�People welcome the opportunity to talk about gay issues with gay people,� said Foreman. �The only way to move the ball forward is to talk about the issues.�
�There is more reticence on the part of LGBT people to bring up LGBT issues than straight people to talk to you about them,� said Foreman.
The group that passed the domestic partner registry in Cleveland Heights by campaigning door to door has continued to canvass and make telephone calls against the Ohio amendment.
Heights Families for Equality spokesperson David Caldwell said the activity will continue through election day, mostly in Cuyahoga County.
HFE is working independently of OPC in this effort.
Caldwell and another HFE organizer, Katie Alex, will be in Eugene, Oregon October 9-18 working to defeat that initiative on behalf of NGLTF.
by Eric Resnick
Columbus--Although the campaign against the Ohio constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage says they have dropped all challenges to the petitions putting it on the ballot, a Columbus mother and daughter have launched one final attack on the signatures.
Attorneys John P. Gilligan and Donald McTigue asked the Ohio Supreme Court September 24 to nullify the 144,247 new signatures turned in by petitioners September 17.
The amendment�s backers submitted the signatures, collected since August 4, because their initial drive fell 42,321 short of the amount needed.
The new action, which is against Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, asks the high court to force Blackwell to find all of the new signatures insufficient and order him to take no further action toward their certification.
Ohioans Protecting the Constitution campaign manager Alan Melamed previously said that their challenges to the petitions ware over.
Melamed made that statement after a September 20 decision by the Tenth Ohio District Court of Appeals to deny a similar action on the initial signatures.
At the time, Melamed said that campaign resources needed to be put elsewhere, and that he asked McTigue and Gilligan to withdraw this suit.
However, Gilligan said they do not represent the campaign, they represent Melanie Essig and her mother Sandra Essig and that the action would continue. The Essigs brought the Tenth District suit and 36 county protests against the signatures.
The attorneys believe there is enough difference between this action and the one denied by the Tenth District to move forward. If they are successful, the court could order the measure off the ballot even though ballots will have been printed by then.
One difference is that for these signatures, a protest was filed with Blackwell over the lack of a summary on the petition, which is required by state law. Blackwell denied the protest, leaving no remedy but to go to the high court.
No similar protest was filed on the initial signatures because, as McTigue argued to the Tenth District, it was futile. However, Blackwell�s attorney Donald Brey argued that it was necessary.
The issue of whether a summary is needed is still unresolved and on appeal by Attorney General Jim Petro. He took the matter to the Tenth District after a Franklin County judge in May made an exception to the law and allowed these petitioners to collect signatures without a summary.
Petro objects to that legal exception.
Blackwell supports the ban amendment. Petro announced this week that he opposes it.
Brey represents Blackwell in the current matter as well and, because the case is on an expedited schedule, had until September 29 to file a response.
The petitioners filed a motion to intervene in the case September 27. The court has not yet ruled on their request.
Gary Bauer, Elizabeth Birch spar in debate on marriage
Berea, Ohio--A contentious debate on same-sex marriage was held at Baldwin Wallace College near Cleveland September 21.
The forum, which was sponsored by Allies, the college�s gay-straight alliance, pitted attorney and former Human Rights Campaign director Elizabeth Birch against former Republican presidential candidate and anti-gay activist Gary Bauer.
Bauer is currently the president of American Values, which is heavily invested in the efforts to pass anti-marriage amendments to the federal and many state constitutions. Formerly, he headed the Family Research Council, which is also pushing for the amendments, including Ohio�s.
Birch and Bauer are touring the country speaking on same-sex marriage. Baldwin Wallace was their only opportunity to oppose each other.
The discussion, moderated by student Alana Jochum, was politically charged, with mostly progressive groups distributing information and registering voters in the lobby. According to Jochum, the College Republicans were invited but did not appear.
Bauer noticed the political leanings of the crowd, and during his opening remarks surveyed the audience of 450 for Bush and Kerry supporters. He bemoaned that Kerry supporters outnumbered Bush supporters by ten to one.
Bauer called the gay rights movement �profoundly undemocratic.�
�The movement opposes every opportunity for people to vote on [same-sex marriage] issues,� Bauer said before making two predictions for Ohio. �George W. Bush will win this state, and if the gay movement will allow it, the people of Ohio will overwhelmingly vote against gay marriage.�
Bauer also told the crowd that marriage�s purpose was �to bridge the gap between the sexes� and that any of the arguments made in favor of gay marriage by Birch could also be applied to polygamy.
Birch began by telling her personal story that includes her coming out, her life with her partner Hillary Rosen and their twins, and how she came to be the director of HRC.
Birch pointed out that many species have gay members, which she illustrated by telling the story of Silo and Roy, two gay male chinstrap penguins at New York�s Central Park Zoo who bonded and were an exclusive couple for four years when they were given an abandoned egg to hatch and parent.
The egg hatched and the couple raised their daughter Tengo, who is heterosexual and now having babies of her own.
�And that�s pretty much it,� she said, �and it�s that way with people, too.�
Birch said three of five lesbian couples and one of five gay male couples are parents, and countered Bauer�s earlier claim that 10,000 studies have been done �proving� that children are best raised by a mother and father �Those studies were of single-parent homes and have nothing to do with two-parent homes where the parents are the same gender,� she noted.
She said the United States has never been closer to becoming a theocracy, and that Bauer and other conservatives are trying to make the American Revolution into a Christian revolution.
During his rebuttal, Bauer accused Birch of attacking his religious convictions. He then said gay people should �be afraid� and hope that no genetic marker for homosexuality has been found since abortion is legal.
Birch, during her rebuttal, rebuked Bauer�s claims that blacks don�t see gay rights as civil rights by rattling off a list of African-American leaders who do.
After the debate, Bauer told Alan Melamed, the head of the group opposing the Ohio marriage amendment, that he has not read the amendment. Melamed asked him, �for the sake of your own credibility,� to look into the second sentence of the amendment. It bans any relationship that �intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect of marriage.� The sentence is widely criticized, even by supporters, as being too broad and mean-spirited.
Bauer said he would.
Senate Democratic caucus honored for DOMA stand
Cleveland--State Senate Minority Leader Greg DiDonato and the Ohio Senate Democratic Caucus were honored at the Cleveland Stonewall Democrats 2004 Spirit of Freedom Awards reception on September 23.
The group received the annual award for their unanimous opposition to Ohio�s so-called �Defense of Marriage Act,� which passed last winter. The measure denies all recognition of same-sex couples and could be used to void local domestic partner laws.
�What it really is,� said CSD award presenter John Corlett, �is a �Denial of Benefits Act.� �
�The Senate caucus heard their Democratic Leader DiDonato�s call to do the right thing and stood together in opposition to the Defense of Marriage Act,� said CSD president Patrick Shepherd. �All 11 senators voted against that anti-gay bill earlier this year--and we need more fair-minded elected officials like them.�
In addition to DiDonato, the other state senators in the caucus include Daniel Brady of Cleveland, Marc Dann of Liberty Township, Teresa Fedor of Toledo, Eric Fingerhut of Shaker Heights, Robert Hagan of Youngstown, Mark Mallory of Cincinnati, Ray Miller of Columbus, C.J. Prentiss of Cleveland, Tom Roberts of Dayton and Kimberly Zurz of Green Township.
After being signed into law by Gov. Bob Taft, DOMA took effect May 6.
The bill, which is known as a �super DOMA,� goes beyond the DOMAs of other states. It bars cities and counties from recognizing or giving �specific statutory benefits of legal marriage,� but does not define what those benefits are.
The measure could be used to undo domestic partner benefits for city workers, such as those in Cleveland Heights and being considered in Columbus, Toledo and Cleveland, as well as domestic partner benefits announced this year by Cleveland State University, Miami University, Ohio State University and Ohio University.
Those benefits are also threatened by State Issue 1, a constitutional amendment on the November ballot that also bans same-sex marriage and anything that �intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect of marriage.�
The event, attended by about 85 people, raised $7,500. The money will be used to elect endorsed Democratic candidates and issues and for voter education and registration in Northeast Ohio, as well as benefit the Ohio Senate Democratic Caucus itself.�
Playwright Eve Ensler leads V-Day voting campaign
Columbus--V-Day is a global movement to end violence against women and girls founded by playwright and activist Eve Ensler, who came to prominence with her play The Vagina Monologues.
For the past six months, V-Day has been conducting a voting campaign, �V is for Vote� to inspire women to vote and to elevate violence against women as an important issue in the 2004 elections.
Ensler and her team were in Columbus on September 22.
V is for Vote encourages V-Day activists, local women and college students to declare themselves �V-Posse Leaders,� organizing get-out-the-vote activities, educational events and outreach around violence against women as an election year issue.
In Columbus, Ensler held a get-out-the-vote rally at the Statehouse by the McKinley monument on High Street. She was joined by local activists who deal with issues of violence against women on a daily basis, including GLBT leaders like Gloria McCauley of the Buckeye Region Anti-Violence Organization and Kate Anderson of Stonewall Columbus.
McCauley urged the crowd to �make Coming Out Day November second and come out in the voting booth.�
�The road to social justice and anti-violence leads right through the voting booth,� she added.
McCauley gave the example of a Central Ohio lesbian teenager who was raped by her brother�s friends, with his involvement, to teach her a lesson about not being straight. McCauley said that violence against women, straight and gay, affects everyone.
That was a sentiment echoed by Anderson, who gave a moving speech saying this country has taken a wrong direction in recent years on social justice, civil liberties and a general increase in the acceptance of violence. Anderson spoke about how the current regimes, state and national, are slowly but surely eroding civil liberties and hard-won legal victories of the past several decades.
On the link between the presidential campaign and V-Day�s mission, Ensler said, �Each year, thousands of V-Day activists stand up to end violence against women educating thousands of people and raising over $25 million. These women and men are everyday leaders in their communities in the fight to end violence against women. Voting is another form of activism, the time has come to take that vagina power to the polls.�
Unmarried women are one of the largest groups of people who do not vote, which spurred Ensler to create V is for Vote. Sixteen million unmarried women are unregistered and more than 22 million didn�t vote in 2000.
Ensler said during the rally that the time had come to end the system of �invasion, occupation and domination� that exists both in America�s foreign policy and the way in which America deals with domestic policies affecting women in particular. �I am 51 years old,� said Ensler, who is also open about being a survivor of severe abuse, �and I have never felt more unsafe, more insecure than I feel in America today.�
Ensler was also in Cincinnati on September 21 and 22 at the YWCA of Greater Cincinnati for a cooperative session between the YWCA and the Rape Crisis and Abuse Center of Hamilton County to discuss the Vote against Violence. Over 100 women attended the events.
They beckon readers to the edge,
Interrupted by God
�I feel homeless right now. It�s like I am not wanted here. It�s so profound,� said the Very Reverend Tracey Lind upon hearing that the legal challenges had been given up earlier that day and that the anti-marriage Ohio constitutional amendment would be on the ballot.
In retrospect, giving her that news before sitting down to discuss her life and her book Interrupted by God provided the perfect opportunity to process firsthand what the book, and Lind, are all about.
The book�s subtitle is Glimpses from the Edge--the place where she believes truth and holiness are found. At that moment, we had just journeyed to the edge together. There were tears.
The collective lives of all LGBT Ohioans and those who love them were just interrupted by something that cannot be ignored because it is powerful enough to change the course of one�s life, and in this case it is scary and vexing.
Not shrinking from that interruption, the openly lesbian dean of Cleveland�s Trinity Cathedral said, �Tell them we held hands.�
The meaning of that very empowering statement is found on page 144 of the book: �Perhaps one of the most poignant examples of the power of song during fateful times was the final message of Etty Hillesum. Scribbled on a scrap of paper and thrown from a boxcar as she and her family departed for Auschwitz, this young woman wrote, �We left the camp singing.� �
�I love holding Emily Ingalls� hand,� said� Lind of her partner. �And we hold hands a lot. And when we walk around our Cleveland Heights neighborhood past a church that will remain nameless, we make sure we�re holding hands, and we make sure they know we�re holding hands.�
�We will be accepted and our relationships validated when we tell our stories,� she said. �All we can do is tell our stories even when they don�t want to hear them.�
Storytelling is what Lind does in Interrupted by God. These are her stories and the stories of people in her life who have meant something to her, and who have taken her to the �edge� with little interruptions that made big differences.
There are 29 of the stories. Some are written like sermons. A few are embellished a bit, with disclosure. Some are funny. But all the characters are real and compelling.
The photographs in the book are compelling, too. Though modest about it, Lind is an accomplished photographer. The book is meritorious on the photos alone.
�The art of photography does not come naturally to me,� writes Lind, �I must work at it. But I have discerned that photography is the work of my soul, not my ego, and I have learned the hard way that whenever my ego gets involved, it distorts the picture.�
Some of the photos in the book are displayed in her office at Trinity. They are guarded by a concrete goose at the door which sports her clerical collar when she�s not wearing it.
Lind�s story is compelling in itself. She describes herself as �belonging to the edge, to the fringe, to the people who are never certain if, when, or where they fit into the great scheme of things.�
An openly lesbian Episcopal priest with a Jewish father and Christian mother, she grew up with a Reform Jewish education, even though the more conservative branches of Judaism would not allow her to be Jewish without a Jewish mother.
Lind was born May 17, 1954, the day the U.S. Supreme Court handed down its landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision. On her 50th birthday, the state of Massachusetts issued its first marriage licenses to same-sex couples.
Rev. Lind describes the event that she says has influenced every life decision she has made, which occurred when she was 15. After a movie about the Holocaust at her religious school, a young rabbi asked Lind what she would have done, since she could have passed as a non-Jew.
�I don�t know,� she responded.
�That accusatory statement,� she writes, �has haunted me all the days of my life.�
Through the telling of stories, Lind, who is overtly political, challenges her readers to open themselves up to that which is neither comfortable nor familiar so truth can enter their lives and relationships.
Lind�s relationships with the people in the stories, including Becky and Bill, who succumbed to AIDS; Yvonne, who interrupted Good Friday services when someone stole her shoes; and Sally interrupting communion by putting the leftover bread in a shopping bag because she was hungry, were honest and open.
�You could be the chair of a committee at the church and come to the food pantry,� said Lind. �No one was treated like a client.�
The people described in the stories in the book have helped Lind come to terms with the defining question asked of her 35 years ago, and, by telling their stories, she beckons readers to the �edge� to grow, while giving the assurance that with faith, the ride can be unsettling, but rewarding. It is a familiar call, and one that Lind puts forth very well.
Some will find the stories overtly religious, while others will see the religious themes only as threads that happen to run through the lives of Lind and her friends.
�God is political,� said Lind, �and I�m always trying to move the agenda of justice forward by asking myself what would God want me to do?�
Lind got her calling, her interruption, on a cold January day in a McDonald�s on 42nd Street in New York. Ohio�s LGBT community was interrupted on a warm Tuesday in September. The lessons taught in this book about what one does with that interruption can guide and inspire the community, allowing the weary to be cared for while their wisdom empowers those wrestling at the edge, finding and speaking truth.
The first lesson is, hold hands. The second, taught by example, is tell the stories.
Rev. Tracey Lind will be at Old St. George, 42 Calhoun Street in Cincinnati, for a book signing from 1 to 2:30 pm on Sunday, October 3. For more information, call 513-7515237.
The following week, on October 10, she will be at Joseph Beth Booksellers in Legacy Village, 24519 Cedar Rd. in the Cleveland suburb of Lyndhurst, from 2 to 4 pm. Call 216-6917000 for more details.