Don't Ask Don't Tell - Don't Make Any Sense
Gay People's Chronicle Discussion Forum: Don't Ask Don't Tell - Don't Make Any Sense
NOTICE! This topic is open to all to read, however a user name is required to POST messages. To create an account, go to "EDIT PROFILE" from the "USER TOOLS" menu on the left.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Admin on Friday, February 11, 2000 - 01:03 pm: Edit

This is new resting spot for all the articles and discussion about the military's infamous Don't Ask, Don't Tell Policy.

Talk about it here.....

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Tigereye on Saturday, February 12, 2000 - 11:04 am: Edit

In all the huffing and puffing about our soldiers and sailors "having" to serve side-by-side with open gays, there is a little fact lost:

They already do. With completely out-of-the-closet, up-front, openly queer servicemembers--every time they go on maneuvers or are deployed with our NATO allies.

Most NATO members allow openly gay people in their militaries, which is something that is kept quiet in the U.S. This includes Canada, Britain, and a lot of European countries. It also includes Israel, Australia, and New Zealand.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Ricksdad on Saturday, February 12, 2000 - 06:30 pm: Edit

I'm halfway through reading "Conduct Unbecoming," the late Randy Shilts' book on gays and lesbians in the military. What an eye-opener! This should be required reading for all gay and gay-friendly people!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Tigereye on Sunday, February 13, 2000 - 10:40 am: Edit

There's a good story in Conduct Unbecoming during World War II, when Gen. Dwight Eisenhower called the head of his base's Women's Army Corps into his office. He said that he'd heard that there were a lot of lesbians in the WAC brigade, and he wanted her to find them, and make a list of their names, to be discharged.

She said, "All right, but, sir, you need to know that the first name on that list will be mine."

Eisenhower's secretary then spoke up: "Excuse me, sir, but will all due respect, the major's name will be the second one on the list. Mine will be first."

The major then pointed out that the lesbians were the best soldiers in the corps, they didn't go off base and carouse with men, there were no pregnancies, etc.

Eisenhower said, "Forget the order."

I first heard this story, told by one of the WAC officers on that base, in the film Before Stonewall. It's a great historical documentary, with interviews with a lot of people whose names are well-known in our history. I'm pretty sure it is available in many video stores. They are making a sequel, After Stonewall, covering the years 1970 to the present.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Kramer on Friday, May 26, 2000 - 02:12 pm: Edit

"....the Air Force is only able to recoup scholarship money if a dischargee commits misconduct, refuses to serve, engages in homosexual acts, or comes out as a means of escaping service...."

Their own quote says it all.

They shouldn't get their money back. He wanted to serve, they wouldn't let him. Case closed.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Hal on Friday, May 26, 2000 - 07:45 pm: Edit

But how many cases are there to be closed? This policy not to seek tuition money has been around since 1994, but the SLDN says the military often tries to do it anyway. This could be the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing, but I think it's just a big game of "smear the queer," and "see what we can get away with." Just like those kids in the Maumee schools, only this time the bully is being paid with our taxes.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Rjcb3 on Tuesday, June 06, 2000 - 04:57 pm: Edit

I've been there!!!

I was in the Navy. I was kicked out of the Navy -- not for what they say I did, but then again, the military has always been clever at politically (oops, I mean, politely) shoving the gay issues under the rug WAY in the back of the closet.

I was there in Desert Shield/Storm. Three of "us" in our little gay family were side by side in General Quarters the whole time we were in combat. I felt proud that I was doing my country's duty. I joined the Navy for my country's duty -- before I even thought of who I was going to have stow away in my seabag.

Like the quote goes (forgive me I don't really remember who said it) "They gave me a medal for killing a man, but gave me the axe for loving one."

I was there when Terry Helvey went to trial for brutally murdering Allen Schindler -- when the Navy covered up the "gay bashing" part of the case because they didn't want to be recognized as allowing gay sailors. I SERVED WITH ALLEN -- and when the Navy kicked me out (on trumped up charges, I might add) I served time with HELVEY!!! I knew both of them and yet the murder-er's situation is clear -- he serves time and in another three years, he's up for parole. The victim was quickly and quietly "forgotten."

This latest case of gay bashing in the military is ending up the same way.

I was in the military at a time when the gay thing was still taboo to even mention. If we have to give the military any credit at all I truly believe in "Don't Ask Don't Tell Don't Pursue" at least that's one step closer to opening the issue to straight soldiers and sailors so that maybe they'll be educated in one of the "trainings" that's required of everyone on their duty days. I say that I believe in it because one day we won't have to have these discussions and we'll be on to bigger and better subjects -- like world peace. It's something that gays and straights could benefit from.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Tommy on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Regarding the story about the Israeli study showing no harm in having gays in the military:
Read this story

Now there is even more proof that the naysayers and voices of gloom and doom are wrong.

Will they ever get it? Or will the USA be forever influenced and controlled by the religious zealots.
By the way, God? Can you please protect us from your followers!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Tommy on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Study: Australian military is not changed by allowing gays

Just as we suspected.......

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Admin on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Army denies momís claim in death of beaten soldier

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Eyemabadpuppy on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 07:41 am: Edit

I served, Gay and proud, in the service (USArmy) for 4 years. I never was ask and I never told. I had no problems. I do not have problems in the "real" world. I believe if one conducts him/herself as one would like others to conduct themselves there would be no problems.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Misio on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:38 pm: Edit

this is off-topic but it is very important to me (i'm posting this in every forum).
can anyone tell me if there are any gay friendly churches or religious organizations in cleveland area (i have no religious preference). i'm looking to find a new church because my pastor recently preached about the evils of homosexual lifestyle.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Ned on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:59 pm: Edit

A Merchant Seaman discloses:

Back in the early 60's a British Admiral confessed that he believed 50% of the Royal Navy had perhaps engaged in homosexual practices at sometime. In so far as I was concerned (albeit it was then still totally illegal to be gay even ashore) this was simply typical of the Royal Navy doing things by half-measures.

Upon entering the Merchant Navy as a complete 16yr old virgin, with absolutely no knowledge of sex, beyond some self pleasuring activity, I was speedily introduced to the excitement of sharing pleasure with others. Indeed, without exception, every seaman, all the stewards and I was to learn many engineers and even some navigating officers - all shared my favours.

If this makes me sound loose, then I guess I was at the time. The whole new world that greeted me, well, shall we say it was overwhelming, but fully indulged in ! Nonetheless, although perhaps not quite as blatant as the above sounds, every voyage was an opportunity for new discoveries. It must be said, none of these activities strayed into anyones working relationships, the job was always first and unaffected by whatever entertainment we deployed when not on duty.

Simply to demonstrate what I mean:
I was on ships that sailed September & October 1962 into Cuba - being buzzed by extra low flying US planes (that could just as easily have actually spoken to us as signal, such was their height) who called us up on the Aldis lamp, "What ship, where from, where bound." I am convinced they knew the answers before the asking ! I think this shows that engaging with each other sexually, did not stop the job progressing. Oh, I have just had a thought, perhaps this could be used to show we were all commies or some such deviants ! Truly, all it shows, is that even the probable end of the world, could not get between a British Merchant ship and a Full Cargo to carry.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Clea023 on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 03:18 pm: Edit

I was in the Army from 1990-1994. I saw the crossover between "The Ban" when it didn't pretend to be anything but a ban, and "DADT" [which definitely pretends to be something else].

By the time my parents let me date, I had turned down nearly every guy for whom I ever THOUGHT I had any interest. Those last two years of highschool, I was so involved in extra curricular activities, that I never went on an actual date until after highschool. I didn't know who I was back then, but I knew something was different - I just didn't click with guys the way my friends did (for a long time I actually believed the BS that I "hadn't met the right one") AND others seemingly knew as much too because I was "baited" during an assault. I had a choice -- turn in my attacker and risk his counter claims ending my career (double jeopardy in my mind -- get attacked, then have my career destroyed because of the attack), or file it in the list of bad memories. It stayed there -- for 11 years, until a practical-joking acquaintance said something mid-prank that my attacker had said - verbatim. Two weeks later, I was "awarded a 4day/3night stay in the Louis Stokes B&B" (better known as the Cleveland VAMC).

The 10,000 people kicked out under DADT are not the only victims. An impossible-to-measure number of us go about our daily lives just the same, the only difference being that we have "some claymores pointed at us" that might go off tomorrow or 20 years from now, no way of knowing for any one person until it barfs all over their life. Imagine getting an "F" in Masters level "Health Care Ethics" because even after your prof reads the hospital paperwork, she wants to know why she should give you an incomplete rather than making you turn in a term paper and take the final one week after a trip to the bin, and you are unable to make the explanation fall out of your mouth because your brain is still bouncing on everything that it just remembered, only exacerbated by the prof's disinterest in the fact that you just got out of the bin. I did that, and it's on my transcript for any Doctoral program to see. I think it might take a Papal Bull for me to get a PhD fellowship with that on there. DADT causes problems long after people leave the service.

There are many veterans being diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, not because of screwed up crap they saw during combat, but rather because of the harassment, attacks, etc. that they were subjected to at the hands of their own brothers in arms. As such, DADT is causing more burdens upon the already overburdened and underfunded VA health care system.

Last year when I was lobbying on behalf of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network in DC, I met Sharon Alexander (thin brunette lawyer with glasses in the Advocate's SLDN ad). She is a happily married straight former JAG officer who left the military instead of renewing her commission because she couldn't handle the thought of having to kick out perfectly good soldiers with ribbons falling over the back of their shoulders simply because they weren't straight. Yes, even KNOWN straight people have their careers cut short because of this statute.

The most absurd situation is when an opposite-sex partner testifies that a service member is straight -- that can only prove that a person MIGHT be bisexual, but can't prove they are straight -- bisexuality is against the UCMJ too, so people have been thrown out merely on suspicions even when there is evidence otherwise.

For folks in NorthEastern Ohio -- I suggest checking out NEOAVER, or nationwide AVER.

Thankfully it looks like 2005 may be a year of progress though. Just in the last two days:
Rules on Gays Exact a Cost in Recruiting, a Study Finds
Move To End 'Don't Ask' As GAO Reveals Gay Ban Cost $200 Million
Gays' ouster seen leaving gap in military
Congress Announces Legislation to Repeal 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'
US military's gay policy 'costly' - BBC

Military Personnel: Financial Cost and Loss of Critical Skills Due to DOD's Homosexual Conduct Policy Cannot Be Completely Estimated - the actual GAO report

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Clea023 on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Talk about rum, sodomy and the lash!

New Course by Royal Navy: A Campaign to Recruit Gays
America!!! Time to take notice!!!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Clea023 on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Wednesday, March 2nd, 2005, will mark the introduction of the aptly named Military Readiness Enhancement Act; a bill sponsored by Rep. Marty Meehan, (D-MA) which, if passed, could signify the end of Don't Ask Don't Tell.

The bill comes on the heels of a just released GAO (Government Accountability Office) report revealing higher than $200 million has been spent to recruit and retrain replacements for those kicked out under DADT. An assembly of high-ranking veterans is planning to converge on Washington on Wednesday to show their support for the Military Readiness Enhancement Act. Included among those who will be coming out nationally in support of this bill will be such notable high-ranking veteran officers as Brigadier General Virgil A. Richard, USA, (Ret)., Rear Admiral Alan M. Steinman, USPHS/USCG (Ret)., and Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy, USA (Ret)., one of the highest ranking members to ever come out in support of abolishing DADT.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Clea023 on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 06:30 pm: Edit

An updated list co-sponsors for HR1059, as well as bill tracking links can be found at http://www.aver.us/alerts.html

Props to SGT Stout for coming out AFTER recovering from shrapnel wounds. Nothing says gays are fit to serve quite like someone who comes out AFTER going to war instead of before going to war. Was SGT Stout too sissy to put himself in harm's way? Heck no -- he was doing his job just like any other soldier, manning the machine gun mount atop his vehicle when surprised by an RPG attack. Too many people think we will come out as a way to get out of going into combat. It just isn't the case. They just don't get it that there really are tens of thousands of queers who honestly want to serve their country, even if it means going to war.

Essayons!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Clea023 on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 06:24 am: Edit

NEOAVER - that's NorthEastern Ohio American Veterans for Equal Rights is calling on all queer veterans in NEOhio, friends, family, partners and supporters of queer veterans to come march with us in the Cleveland Pride Parade 18 June 2005 or help table at the festival afterwards.

We will be carrying a massive 20'x30' American flag in the parade and need at least 15 volunteers to help carry these Colors. Come Out and show your support for those who are willing to pay freedom's price, even when we don't have their own Equal Rights. Civvies are plenty OK, but per national parade regs - you are permitted to wear your uniform according to regulation if it still fits. We also have queer veterans t-shirts for sale. http://www.aver.us/shirt.jpg We need a head count no later than 10 June 2005 (so please let us know if you can help bear the Colors ASAP!), but folks are more than welcome to continue volunteering after that time.

NEOAVER
P. O. Box 1895
Stow, OH 44224
http://www.neoaver.org

Thanks!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Forever on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 01:26 am: Edit

Hi! let's check this website :
http://traixitin.net
You'll be suprised ! Have fun:)


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. A valid username and password combination is required to post messages to this discussion.
Username:  
Password: